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Post by ecocola on Mar 9, 2014 6:55:25 GMT -8
Alright, so i have a player with a character who has a high willpower (97) and telekinesis, and i realized, he uses it for everything. I try to throw non huge enemies at them? Telekinesis the leader/most powerful. Locked door? Telekinesis to rip it off. It's kind of making it hard to challenge them when he usually can basically make 4 automatic kills a day or can simply force them to work his way. Is there any sort of fine print attached to this power not in the book? Should i start getting really specific with how far the enemies he throws go, and how much damage they take?
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Post by providence13 on Mar 9, 2014 9:25:02 GMT -8
mutantepochforum.boards.net/thread/145/on-telekinesis-combatI've had some similar questions and thoughts on the matter. I think the rules are kept simple so that GM's can interpret them for each individual game; add as much complexity as needed. Sometimes I liked things a bit more detailed. Please check out my other post. I'd love to discuss this with another GM.
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Post by providence13 on Mar 9, 2014 10:30:36 GMT -8
Alright, so i have a player with a character who has a high willpower (97) and telekinesis, and i realized, he uses it for everything. I try to throw non huge enemies at them? Telekinesis the leader/most powerful. Locked door? Telekinesis to rip it off. It's kind of making it hard to challenge them when he usually can basically make 4 automatic kills a day or can simply force them to work his way. Is there any sort of fine print attached to this power not in the book? Should i start getting really specific with how far the enemies he throws go, and how much damage they take? Thought some more on this.. WIL 97 is high! It is and should be incredibly rare. So it's not unusual that the PC is using this as his raison d'être. From his perspective, he probably wants to be allowed to use his power to the fullest. As a GM, you have a tough job. How do you manage this player? The more he uses this mutation, the more people will talk about it. Either reptilius smoke signals, moaner drums, word of mouth or radio, his reputation is getting around. Maybe he's doing good deeds, maybe he's making enemies. If someone wants to take him out, they will find a way. Snipers, grenades, land mines, poison.. Throwing sand in his eyes could work. I'm not saying kill him because he threatens game balance. That would be poor advice and unlike other rpg's, balance is not really important in TME. For me, the main issue is giving everyone something to do. Each player comes to the table for different reasons. Maybe your 'Professor X' doesn't have Survival, but another PC does. Their supplies purchased in the last town have gone rancid, moldy or the water was stored in a petrol container. While in the middle of nowhere, the PC with Survival just became important. An alternative view is that this guy will be one of the movers and shakers of your story, game and region. He's a pivotal player in this super hero comic, as it were. Still, WIL 97 is awesome. As I read it, there's Hurling and then Controlled Lifting. They are each handled a bit differently. Hurling:Range: 97m SV: 194 Kg: (not really important with TK Hurling. All blunt* items are treated as a Huge Rock.) Damage: Huge Rock, d20+3 ROF: 1/rnd (Just like most ranged weapons, this will preclude other attack forms; unless Advanced Mind, etc.) Velocity: 97m/rnd Once thrown, the mutant has no control over the object. Edit: *What about sharp, bladed items? Chainsaw that's been rigged to keep running..?Controlled Lifting:Max weight: 388kg Move: 16m/rnd. OR Willpower/10 meters per round = 10, rounded up. The book states both. Maybe the slower rate is himself.. Duration: 97 rnds per use of this power. How do you handle TK vs a locked door? Never had to think about it in TME.. You could hurl hard objects at the hinges or lock. With a 194 SV, he can probably hit it anywhere he wants. But that might take a few hits (rnds) to do enough damage at d20+3 every time. His way is more dramatic. Rips it off the hinges, huh..? Steel doors in the MOD have about 100 END and -20 DV. Wood, plastic and other materials would vary, but how much would they weigh?.. A quick search gives some help. www.betterbuildinghardware.com/pages/door-weight-calculatorDoor hinges can support more than the weight of a door. Simple interior doors are 80"x32", US. The doors in my house are 20-50lbs (guessing). I can support my weight on an open (hollow) inner door.. If I'm very still. One could also put a fist or foot through it as it's pretty cheap. Let's say that was <100kg, total. I'll bet 100kg would pull down my cheap interior door. From using the above door calculator, I'd say he can pull down most normal sized doors that aren't made of solid steel. EDIT: A locked door would need even more force to bring it down. Incidentally, my last house was built in 1949. Even the interior doors were solid wood and I'd break my foot if I tried to kick it down. |
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Post by SavageGM on Mar 9, 2014 11:12:39 GMT -8
Shouldn't "Object Movement" be labeled as "Max Distance object lifted"? Then the Will/10 meters is the actual movement rate, as in distance it moves per round?
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Post by providence13 on Mar 9, 2014 12:20:51 GMT -8
Shouldn't "Object Movement" be labeled as "Max Distance object lifted"? Then the Will/10 meters is the actual movement rate, as in distance it moves per round? I see how you get that and it's a good point. You're saying for Controlled Lifting, the range of control is considerably less than the range of Hurling.. So with a WIL 97, he'd be limited to 16m drops.. That's a possible solution. Let us know if any of this helps.  |
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Post by SavageGM on Mar 9, 2014 13:30:42 GMT -8
I see the hurling as a push. A quick, very quick push that hits the object almost like a bullet coming out of the gun. Lots of energy behind it but once its launched that's it. The Controlled Lifting for 97 rounds could be a piece of metal scrap, big enough to carry you and a partner which can move at a speed (distance per round) of your will/10 for 97 rounds.
With a 97 Willpower that's a for sure hit most times. If you have a huge sized "item" around you at the time, mind you, its gonna do d20+3. d20 is a big chance for a whiff on damage. I think that is taken into factor with the ability. On top of that it is a Prime Mutation.
If it became a problem though, I would lower the usage of 4 times a day per rank, to maybe 2 times per rank or lower if need be.
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Post by providence13 on Mar 10, 2014 7:28:32 GMT -8
I just remembered to check the examples from the books.. ------------Spoilers for MOD-------- Kwon (K-won my players say to make fun of him.), Has TK and he can fly. The PC mutant with TK is a bit stronger than NPC Kwon, the super mutant. pertinent stats: WIL 86 WT 140kg AGI 16 Hover: 9m/rnd It's interesting that although he has 3 heads, only one seems to have TK. (My players would probably ask for all three heads to have it. ) He can lift 176kg (presumably 86 x 2), but that should be 258kg(!), as per pg 75 TME. WIL 86 puts him in the 71-90 column on the TK chart. He can hover/fly at 9m/rnd but again, with WIL 86, he should fly at 12m/rnd.. * Another point: Why does he have -20 DV while flying? Is his ability to fly so agile that it qualifies as "Dodging", pg 105 TME? Find by me, but his SV should also be -20, right? EDIT: * This is the WIL/10 described in the text. 8.6 = 9m Maybe the 12m does refer to distance you can make a controlled TK lift. If that's correct, then he could fly 12m above the ground, max. Lot of confusion in that NPC. |
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Post by Brutorz Bill on Mar 11, 2014 17:21:31 GMT -8
Ok, now I'm confused... I just remembered to check the examples from the books.. ------------Spoilers for MOD-------- Kwon (K-won my players say to make fun of him.), Has TK and he can fly. The PC mutant with TK is a bit stronger than NPC Kwon, the super mutant. pertinent stats: WIL 86 WT 140kg AGI 16 Hover: 9m/rnd It's interesting that although he has 3 heads, only one seems to have TK. (My players would probably ask for all three heads to have it. ) He can lift 176kg (presumably 86 x 2), but that should be 258kg(!), as per pg 75 TME. WIL 86 puts him in the 71-90 column on the TK chart. He can hover/fly at 9m/rnd but again, with WIL 86, he should fly at 12m/rnd.. * Another point: Why does he have -20 DV while flying? Is his ability to fly so agile that it qualifies as "Dodging", pg 105 TME? Find by me, but his SV should also be -20, right? EDIT: * This is the WIL/10 described in the text. 8.6 = 9m Maybe the 12m does refer to distance you can make a controlled TK lift. If that's correct, then he could fly 12m above the ground, max. Lot of confusion in that NPC. |
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Post by ecocola on Mar 11, 2014 18:53:09 GMT -8
Well we had a big argument over whether he could or couldn't lift a door (the one of Galespit) and just lob it away when they tried to escape the town. He said that he did calculations and that a door that size made of "scrap wood and metal" was well within his ability. I'm not terribly good at that kind of stuff, and he said he could just rip it off its hinges. Not wanting to do lots of research on doors i just instituted a rule "If you can lift it with telekinesis you can throw it" which meant he'd have to lift the door (firmly attached to the walls) rather than it being like a mind bullet. Mostly since almost every case of telekinesis i see, they always lift it before they throw it.
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Post by providence13 on Mar 11, 2014 21:56:56 GMT -8
Ok, 2 things. First, let's call Kwon's irregularities a typo. I make them all the time; look at the wrong column.. it happens. Second, my group used to have arguments too. I eventually had to say, "I've just described what happens based on your actions. I'm available after the game should you wish to discuss it further but we won't burn game time with arguments." After the game let them know you are consistent with rule calls, but you don't have to tell them why their actions failed. Maybe the door was reinforced. Maybe the hinges and locks are strong enough to withstand the force. It may take more than one round to tear it asunder. Perhaps another (damn) telekinetic is holding it in place! I'm not saying "Nerf" him. I'm suggesting that his tactic may not work every time and he might not know why. But you have to be consistent. They have to trust you. Maybe they encounter another town reinforcing doors and supports because TK's are causing havoc. One locksmith in particular has designed stronger doors with supports that sink in the ground.. Sorry to harp. This topic is near and dear to me. Had a rules layer player in another, heavy rules rpg do this all the time. It became so bad that other players were getting frustrated. We weren't going to lose the game because of one player. I said "You're driving over 30 minutes to come here and argue. Is that fun? I'm not spending my only day off like this. If you're not having fun, leave." I felt bad, at first. The other players said "Thanks; Now we can get back to gaming!" |
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Post by providence13 on Mar 11, 2014 22:07:53 GMT -8
We do have an unbiased solution for settling those tough arguments that come up.
It happens.
"Dice me for it".
You don't have to make a ruling that will tie you up later; no precedent.
Highest roll wins an move on. I would suggest saving this one for emergencies. :-)
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Post by ecocola on Mar 12, 2014 6:47:49 GMT -8
Alright yeah, i was just wondering what i could do that will still present a challenge that telekinesis can't automatically fix.
Thanks for the tips.
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Post by rexbannon on Mar 12, 2014 11:58:45 GMT -8
Amen brother providence 13! I've been there done that with my group on several occasions. Its a real disappointment to have to stop the game to argue with a player that feels your being unfair when all your trying to do is keep the game balanced and fun for everyone including yourself.
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