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Post by tallonhunter on Jan 21, 2014 8:12:11 GMT -8
if you look in the hit modifier tables, there is are entries in each that say 'attacker using off hand'. i have taken this to mean that using a one handed melee or ranged weapon (ie throwing knives)means you can normally attack twice even without ambidextrous, you just take the -20 or so penalty on top of the other penalties to hit with the offhand attack. is this the intent of the book? because it says we only get one attack each per round till level 7 (where we get two)...but other than that seems to assume you can use either hand to make your attack.
on a related note, do knife fighter and knife thrower attack rates stack? if so than ive been doing it wrong. should be doing 4 attacks per hand instead of two! and when we hit rank seven? 5. with my current knife stats i would do a minimum(assuming all hit) of 200 damage.
just want to check on the veracity of my assumptions. thank you for reading this.
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Post by maxstone on Jan 21, 2014 16:15:50 GMT -8
Here's how I think it is: No particular skills: -1 melee attack or one throw per round maximum. You can use the off hand if you want, at -20 if not ambidextrous. -If holding 1 ranged weapon per hand, then you can fire those both in the same round (see penalty described under weapon chart) -At rank 7 you learn to swing faster ( 3 seconds rule!) and you can manage to make 2 attacks per round. 2 with one hand or one per hand. Knife fighter: - 2 melee attacks per round per dominant hand. 4 if ambidextrous! - at rank 7=3 melee attacks per round per dominant hand. 6 if ambidextrous! Knife thrower: - you can throw up to three knives per round, according to your skill. I would consider a thrown knife as a melee attack. So, If you have a total of 4 attacks ( say an ambidextrous character under rank 7, with the knife fighter skill), you have to chose if you want to make a melee OR a ranged attack. Hope this helps  |
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Post by providence13 on Jan 22, 2014 7:56:42 GMT -8
In my opinion these are two separate skills. Would it be any different if it was javelins or axes? Fighting with knives and throwing knives are two different things for me.
I rule that Knife Thrower assumes two hands. the off-hand gets the second knife ready.
For a normal individual with these skills I would allow you to attack once melee and throw once at 3 skill points in each. Or mix and match other combos with higher Ranks or ability. Also, if your strength is phenomenally high and you hit a hard surface (like a heavy robot), or miss, it's probably going to break. :-)
Note: The way I read Knife Fighter, you get 2 melee attacks per round*, Ranks 1-6. You can only attack with the off-hand if you are ambidex. We play to have fun and not just keep the rules alive so if your game is different, that's cool. Just how I read it.
Edit: *I guess the rules assume knives in melee are a short, quick jabbing weapon (hence, 2 attacks/rnd with that knife) IF you are a trained Knife Fighter.
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Post by providence13 on Jan 30, 2014 7:33:31 GMT -8
Can I piggy back on this thread to discuss a related topic? Well, I think it's related. Interestingly, the issue of ambidex came up in this Sunday's game. One player wanted to use a razorsword and katana (that he picked up from the Asian store in MOD) at the same time. I felt it was entirely possible as it is possible in real life and used the -20 off-hand penalty. Another player had issue with the 2 weapon style. "You mean I rolled a 10 on handedness, Ambidexterity and all I get is no -20 penalty for off-hand?! You're saying that anybody can use 2 swords at once to get an extra melee attack and only take -20 to off-hand?" "The ambidex player has a point", I thought. But should I nerf something that is entirely feasible? Should the off-hand get -20 and 1/2 SV skill bonus? (As an off the cuff, possible HR.. no). Is that too much of a penalty? Or, is the -20 a sufficient penalty in this rpg?In TME rpg, Rank advancement yields skill points. 9 points in Sword is + 20SV. If you assume that the skill applies to either hand, which is easier and works for me*, then the off-hand penalty removes the equivalent of 9 skill points of SV bonus with that weapon! Looking at it another way, pg 34 Rank advancement shows that -20 SV is huge. Bonus SV for Rank starts good (50/50 chance to hit) and drops off fast; +5, +4, +3, +2....,+1 after Rank 11. By that chart, -20 is pretty big. It's when you combine Rank advancement, plus high skill, plus awesome stats (from Rank gain), that -20 isn't a big deal. But since these factors aren't the norm, isn't -20 for off-hand enough? * (but it probably wouldn't in a realistic simulation game, which this isn't, thankfully.) Well, there's the other side of this issue; you get another melee attack. Another melee attack is a big deal for almost anyone, especially at low Ranks. It's sometimes a confusing mess for mutants but it can also push them into the realm of gonzo Cuisinart. Randy Mandibles gets 1 attack (base), +1 attack with Mandibles, +1 attack with his horn (pg 68 "this attack can be used alone or in combination with other melee attacks") and is over Rank 7 = 6 attacks/rnd if he uses all of these modes of attack.
| Rank 1-6 | Berserk |
| Rank 7+ | Berserk | | Attack Mode | Att/rnd | Attk/rnd |
| Attk/rnd | Attk/rnd | | Sword | 1 | 2 |
| 2 | 4 | | Mandibles | +1 | +2 |
| +2 | +4 | | Horn | +1 | +2 |
| +2 | +4 | | (Off-hand Sword) | +(1) | +(2) |
| +(2) | +(4) | | Total Attacks/rnd | = 3 (4) | = 6 (8) |
| = 6 (8) | = 12 (16) |
12 melee attacks while Berserk is formidable. The extra off-hand melee attack is making my head hurt because it now grants 4 more rolls. 16 attacks is out of control, but it could be worse. At this rate his next mutation will probably be Sprinting.. Should an extra off-hand weapon grant an extra attack or should it only allow you to make an extra melee attack if you have one available to use? |
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Post by rexbannon on Jan 30, 2014 11:24:25 GMT -8
Most creatures in the game cannot take the damage from 12-16 successful attacks at once, unless your throwing snow peas at the enemy. Beserk wears off, so you can only count on those extra attacks for a certain amount of time. I suggest that you do a play test.
Example: Randy Mandibles with full health and equipment vs 500 skullocks or moaners. How long can randy last? How many skullocks or moaners can he fell before being killed himself. Give him the full range of attacks at 16 and let the player test it and seen how overpowered it can actually be. This way you can guage just how powerful that character can be and what it would take to challeneg or even if need be defeat and slay the character.
Some times (espcially with some of the younger people ive played with)you have to slay a player because of his predisposition to power gaming. Power gamers ruin it for the rest of the players who may be real role players or mediocare/avergae characters. Its like the Incredible hulk adventuring with a group of care bears! the level of force you need as GM to challenge the HULK would alomst surly instant kill all of the care bears. Which makes the party unbalanced and ruins the game for the care bears. The epoch has a way of being unbalanced one adventure and the polar oppiste the next adventure. Its kind of unpredictable and i think thats why i like it. it has a way of taking care of the power gamers and the average role players at the same time, so that they are both mutually happy.
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Post by providence13 on Jan 30, 2014 19:37:34 GMT -8
Rexbannon, your experience and sage counsel is always welcome.
Playtesting the scenario, wide open, is good advice.
Thank you.
Thing is, this guy is not a power gamer. 2nd rpg he's ever played and chargen was completely random. Mature guy, just wants to play. Funny how TME works out..
What do you think about the bold questions above?
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Post by timeshadows on Jan 31, 2014 6:36:46 GMT -8
I just apply a cumulative -20 for each additional attack over those 'granted', and let the dice determine how many hit.
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Post by providence13 on Jan 31, 2014 10:05:46 GMT -8
I just apply a cumulative -20 for each additional attack over those 'granted', and let the dice determine how many hit. Thanks for the input, as always. What you stated is exactly what's happening. The off-hand sword attack is the only one not 'granted'. The rules don't forbid it, either (Unless you only get one melee attack at Ranks 1-7, plus mutations and then at Rank 7 you get 2 melee plus mutations where the 2 melee could be either sword twice or both swords once). The off-hand penalty doesn't slow him down at all. The confusion sets in, because anytime often an additional (3rd) " limb" provides one additional attack. This isn't an additional "limb", just an additional melee weapon. Think I found it:The bottom of pg 100, note #2 gives the off-hand penalty for firing guns in each hand! Ranged attacks have nothing to do with any other attks/rnd but you can obviously use a gun in each hand (with penalties). I think this is the precedent for using 2 melee weapons even though you aren't ambidex. In that case, Randy should get the full number of attacks, as described above, if circumstances warrant it. I'll shut up and let him embrace his ability to make blood sausage. I will enforce the rule that if you move more than 3m, you roll another init. Your crazy number of attacks doesn't transfer to another opponent 3+m away. Just to put this all into perspective, here's a list of every incidence of bonus melee attks/rnd (not including animals). Beak: +1 additional attack Berserker Rage: double the number of attacks from physical weaponry (!) Bladed Limbs: each one +1 attack Claws: start with 2 attacks/rnd base instead of one. Rank 7 = 4 attk/rnd. What if you combined these claws with a MA kata?Fanged: +1 melee attack if very close. 2 Fanged attks/rnd at Rank 7. Gaping Maw: additional melee attack.. multiple melee attks at high Rank.. Horns: all horns present = 1 attk. "..can be used alone or in combination with other attacks"; sounds like +1 attk/rnd, to me. Mandibles: +1 attk/melee. Monstrous Morph: " can use one weapon in each hand as if ambidextrous" Multi-Arm: Interesting that it doesn't say.. I feel that each pair of arms = 1 attk/rnd. Paralysis Tendrils: "each capable of shocking targets".. Is that +1 attk/tendril? Yeah?.. Caveat: Can only be used 3x/day/Rank. Serpentine Body: It doesn't say. Using the Rattlesnake Beastial Human description, "tail slap combined with.. hand held weapons". Sprint: TME's version of Haste (or Celerity). " can.. double.. melee attack rate..". Caveat: 2D10 +Rank in rnds. Tusks: +1 melee attack Tailed: Doesn't actually say. I'm ruling it as Beastial Human tails. See Croc, Scorpion.. Tentacles: each one can "bash and whip", 2 can grapple. Tusks: +1 attk/rnd Physical AlterationsSpiked Forearms: "2 melee attacks". Does this mean 2 attks/rnd if this attack form is used? VS the one you normally get. Chicken Legs: extra melee attack. Prehensile Tail: As monkey, pg 74; can hold dagger or knife (or small shield?). Is this an additional attack? Maybe.. Bone spikes on knees and elbows: 2 melee stabs.. Like Spiked Forearms, above. I'm thinking 2 attks vs the one you normally get. Underdeveloped Limb: +1 melee attack if you lash a weapon to it. Implants: Alloy Razor Claws: 2 attacks/rnd instead of the one you get at the start. Cybernetic Legs: does not grant an extra attk. Fold out Manipulator Arm: can use a simple weapon, shield.. if user devotes full concentration, it can wield firearms. No bonus attk. Force Shield: not an additional attk. Considered a back up weapon. Hydraulic Legs: Legs can kick once/melee rnd.. doesn't say additional.. probably isn't. Hypodermic Tendril: No additional attacks. Manipulator Tendril: can attack..can parry "allowing other weapons to engage foe normally" sounds like +1 att/rnd. Pincer: If present as an additional arm, +1 melee attack. "like any melee weapon.. 2 attk/rnd at Rank 7. Power Arm: "more than one can be present.." most other times you have an additional limb, you get +1 attack/rnd. Shoulder Turret: attacks as "separate robotic entity". See weapon descriptions. Surveillance Tendril: Doesn't sound like an extra attack. "If hard pressed.. can be used to bludgeon". Telescoping Thrust Blade: Can be used with other melee attacks, but can only attack 1/rnd; not 2/rnd at Rank 7. Tentacle: doesn't say.. it would be a 3rd "limb" but control doesn't appear precise. No reason you can't choke and then shoot/stab.. |
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Post by rexbannon on Jan 31, 2014 23:51:26 GMT -8
Not a problem Prov13! Im hesitant to touch on this subject because more attacks equals more complication to game play, by that i mean more attacks = longer player turns, and with two characters per player and five players it really drags out. Not much mind you but enough that i know that i dont want to think about it. I guess for arguments sake i would allow off hand attacks as an extra attack other then your normal attack due to the fact that it has it available in the HUB rules as a possibility based on the -20 it says you will suffer should you attempt it. The epoch can be a brutal game if you really sit there and think about many of the possible characters that can be made with the system and what they truly can do. It blows my mind sometimes, the potential some characters have to be awe inspiringly power and how some characters can be the very peak of mediocraty and still be extremly effective. There can be vast differences of power amongst a group of player characters in a group. I like it dont get me wrong i think it makes for a coheisive group structure that makes the strong characters protect the weaker characters during combat who may have a skill in some skill that no one else in the group may have. But man it can be a challenge to GM the epoch sometimes due to this fact. Like i said in my previous post some characters might be hulks from the beginning and other characters could have randomly rolled up carebears in comparison. You really have to be suttle and catious when you plan out your campaigns so you can challenge the really strong characters and at the same time not make it to hard for the not so strong characters. Roleplaying out situations and dropping in puzzle tests is absolutly needed somtimes in the epoch to balance the playability for all the players at the table in my opinion.
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Post by maxstone on Feb 1, 2014 7:32:20 GMT -8
I would limit off-hand attacks as much as possible (1 extra attack per turn)... 12-16 attacks per player could destroy almost(almost?) every enemy in my game. And what if a player finds a laser sword? God help us!
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Post by providence13 on Feb 1, 2014 9:10:20 GMT -8
I would limit off-hand attacks as much as possible (1 extra attack per turn)... 12-16 attacks per player could destroy almost(almost?) every enemy in my game. And what if a player finds a laser sword? God help us! I hear you and appreciate the feedback. When you say "limit", would you give less than the book allows? Maybe we could set a max cap on attks/rnd as a HR... So, far this characters' attk/rnd aren't out of the ordinary. Again, these PC's were completely random. Can you imagine if we were trying to build an extreme character that was all attk/rnd? Actually, that sounds fun! Think I will. On the second point about the laser sword; As I understand it, you don't get to choose what attack forms get all of the multiple attacks. It isn't that all of these are 1:1 absolute values that can be interchanged. Using my example matrix for Randy RAW(rules as written), he can't use his sword attacks in place of other attacks. Ignoring the off-hand sword for a second, Mr Mandibles can only attack up to 4 times with his dominant, right hand; and that's over R7 while Berserk. In the same round, he can attack up to 4 times with mandibles and 4 times with horn. Sure, he can decide not to attack like this. He could stab with his horn 2x and decide he doesn't want to get his face in close with a pus-filled moaner, so he just finishes with the sword; one swing and the thing dies. The next opponent is over 3m away. If he moves the distance to attack, he must roll a new init for the new combatant. (At least that's how I read pg 104, top left.) He has only attacked 2x with horn and once with sword; doesn't matter. Sometimes, that's all you get. Also, he has fumbled before and lost all the remaining attacks plus the chance to strike next round. For example, if a weapon jams and you decide to clear the jam, you lose remaining attacks with that weapon. Maybe your mandibles get tangled (ouch!) or your horn locks with the deer antlered secret agent that just jumped out of the shadows. Every chance to attack is a chance to crit is also a chance for fumble. Do you want 12 or 16 chances to fumble? If he crits once, most opponents drop and he's lost his remaining attacks. (Depending on conditions, I have allowed a few of his extra attacks on an opponent that is 2 steps away. Sometimes it's an AGI HC to cleanly step around any obstacles and swing a sword, for instance.) Therefore it's rare that conditions allow maximum attacks. Attacks aren't exactly interchangeable. |
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Post by providence13 on Feb 1, 2014 9:21:46 GMT -8
Not a problem Prov13! Im hesitant to touch on this subject because more attacks equals more complication to game play, by that i mean more attacks = longer player turns, and with two characters per player and five players it really drags out. Not much mind you but enough that i know that i dont want to think about it. I guess for arguments sake i would allow off hand attacks as an extra attack other then your normal attack due to the fact that it has it available in the HUB rules as a possibility based on the -20 it says you will suffer should you attempt it. I recommend the "intent then init" approach. I have each player state their intentions, out loud before even rolling initiative. Rolling init and then deciding what you're going to do encourages new players to stop paying attention until it's their turn to go. Players state intent, we roll init and actions are then resolved, attacks rolled, etc. in order of init. Just my take on it. Edit: Although some people like the "init then intent" approach where the slowest init states their action first. That way, the combatant with the fastest reaction time sees how everything is about to unfold, states their intentions last, then actions are resolved. In my experience this approach takes longer with less experienced or larger groups. Your game may vary. |
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Post by rexbannon on Feb 3, 2014 10:30:01 GMT -8
I'll try the "intent then Init" approach an see if it speeds things up a bit during game play. Thanks for the suggestion. Most games ive played have been "movement then action" with action being your intent.
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Post by providence13 on Feb 5, 2014 8:46:10 GMT -8
Let's look at the NPC's in The Crossroads. Maybe we can infer some answers from the examples.
I'm just including the pertinent data.
pg 424 Appro-Mortica R:5 (only R:5 at 92 years old?) Effectively the same as 4 armed and 2 heads.
Crab Pincher 2/rnd Ambidex
Fists 2/rnd Ambidex
Assault Rifle 3/rnd (ROF) Would have to drop/sling rifle to punch.
pg 425 Mr Maxmorta R:14
Horns 2/rnd (Rank gain)
(No HTH combat training other than Grapple. That's a shame for R:14!)
pg 426 Burgess R:13
MA 4/rnd (start with 2 x 2 Rank gain)
Knife Throwing 2/rnd (5 pts. Correct. Not a melee attack. Doesn't double)
Battle Axe 2/rnd (Rank gain)
pg 427 Ms Clean R:9 Ambidex!
(No melee combat other than Grapple..)
pg 428 Mujwok R:6
2 Razor Swords 1att/rnd each *
Brawling 2/rnd *
* He has 3 arms! This guy is right handed and extra limbs usually occur on the dominant side. So, he has 2 dominant limbs. This is how he gets 2 razor sword attacks or 2 Brawling attacks; depends on which melee method he chooses.
At R:7 he should get double this; 2 attk/rnd with each sword or 4 attk/rnd Brawling. Or he could decide a combination..
pg 429 Estella R:8
MA 2/rnd (She's R:8. She should have 4/rnd. Right?)
pg 430 David R:8
MA 2/rnd (He's R:8. He should have 4/rnd. What's going on here?)
Razor sword 2/rnd (This is correct for R:8)
pg 431 Fakmal R:9 Ambidex!
Gaping Maw 1/rnd (?, TME pg 67 "multiple attacks at high Rank".)
Brawling 2/rnd (Ambidex!)
pg 432 Noxtoth R:11 Ambidex!
2 Bladed Limbs 4/rnd (Each Bladed Limb adds 1/rnd, x2 for Rank.)
2 Razorswords 4/rnd (one in each hand with Ambidex, x2 for Rank.)
pg 433 Geshrod R:9
Power Arm 2/rnd (It states that he's over R:7, so he gets 2/rnd. I would give him his Brawling bonuses. They're not included..)
pg 434 Horace R:15
MA 4/rnd (2, then x2 Rank gain)
Razor Sword 2/rnd (1, then x2 Rank gain)
Again, he gets MA or swords, unless he's mixing and matching attacks, then he'd get a -20 off-hand.)
pg 434 Hynro... he looks right!
pg 436 Mr. Jaw R:8
Fangs 2/rnd (1/rnd x2 Rank gain. TME pg 65. To get 2/rnd, this has to be the only melee attk that rnd.)
Throwing knives 2/rnd (Good. This doesn't double because it's not a melee attack.)
Knives 2/rnd (He doesn't even have this WE skill, but anyone can attack with a knife and that's x2 for Rank gain.)
Brawling 2/rnd (1, x2 Rank gain)
(He doesn't get all of these attacks in one rnd, of course.)
pg 437 Ms. Owens R:5
4 Great Swords 4/rnd (8 arms, she can wield 4 2-handed swords.)
4 Submachine guns 5 each x 4 guns! (I'd definitely use TME pg 108 multiple att/rnd rules.)
Fangs 1/attk/rnd (TME pg 65.)
pg 438 Margaret R:6
(looks good)
pg 439 Mr. Optimora R:7 ("center arm" dominant?)
(Nothing in the description or mutations about having a center arm or more than 2 arms.. ok.)
Razor Sword 2/rnd (1, x2 Rank gain)
Brawling 2/rnd (1, x2 Rang gain)
Other than "center arm", he looks right. Maybe he only has 1 arm in the center...
pg 440 Metago R:6 Ambidex!
MA 2/rnd (Right for his Rank. Notice that Ambidex doesn't add MA attacks.)
Knives 4/rnd (Knife Fighter and Ambidex = 4/rnd.)
(At R:7, he should get 4 MA/rnd OR 6/rnd with Knives; TME pg 45, OR a combination of the 2.)
The last 3 look right as rain and what you'd expect from the rules.
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Post by providence13 on Feb 6, 2014 8:41:21 GMT -8
What does all of this mean?
Here's my take on it.
At Ranks 1-6:
A. Two normal limbs offer one dominant hand = 1 melee attk/rnd. Even if you had a melee weapon in each hand, you only get 1 attk/rnd because that's all you get at R1-6.
B. Two normal limbs with one dominant hand and another limb or bone blade, hook arm, spiked
tail, mandibles, etc = 2 melee attk/rnd (If you attack with your dominant hand and the
extra appendage.) Every mutation or implant that grants "+1 attk/rnd" must use that attack form.
c. You can use a gun in each hand with penalties. Pointing and pulling a trigger is easier than manipulating a melee weapon.
D. Martial Arts grants 2 melee attk/rnd. This assumes punches, kicks, elbows, knees, headbutts, etc. This advanced style of combat grants the extra attk/rnd over normal R1 melee combat. Having 2 attk/rnd assumes both hands are free or attacking 2 limbs, one limb and head, etc. (I think MA does not adhere to the standard off-hand penalty rule. Your game may vary.)
R1-6 and Ambidex:
A. Both hands are dominant = 2 melee attk/rnd. You can use a melee weapon in each hand, even though you should only get 1 att/rnd. Ambidex grants this additional attack if using a melee weapon in each hand. You attack once with each melee weapon.
B. Two normal limbs with one dominant hand and another limb or bone blade, hook arm, spiked
tail, mandibles, etc = 3 melee attk/rnd (If you attack with both of your "dominant" hands and the extra appendage.)
C. You can use a gun in each hand with no penalties. Pointing and pulling a trigger is easier than manipulating a melee weapon.
D. MA and Ambidex do not offer extra attacks. MA already assumes you can use more than your dominant hand. MA ignores the dominant hand rule.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At Rank 7+:
A. Two normal limbs offer one dominant hand = 1 melee attk/rnd x2 Rank gain = 2 melee
attk/rnd. One razor sword in your dominant hand can attack 2x in a 3 sec rnd.
B. Two normal limbs with one dominant hand and another limb or bone blade, hook arm, spiked
tail, mandibles, etc = 4 melee attk/rnd (If you attack with your dominant hand and
the extra appendage. Each mutation or implant that gives +1 additional attk/rnd will grant +2 attk/rnd with that attack form.
c. Now you can attack once with the dominant hand and once with the off-hand, if you choose because you get 2 attk/rnd. The off- hand attack does receive penalties and these 2 attacks count for your 2 attk/rnd at R7.
You can use a gun in each hand with penalties. Pointing and pulling a trigger is easier than manipulating a melee weapon. R7 does not add att/rnd with ROF weapons.
D. Martial Arts now grants 4 melee attk/rnd.
R7 and Ambidex:
A. R7 and both hands are dominant = 4 melee attk/rnd. You can use a melee weapon in each hand attacking 2x with each melee weapon. No penalties for off-hand.
B. R7, Ambidex with 2 normal limbs and another limb or bone blade, hook arm, spiked
tail, mandibles, etc = 6 melee attk/rnd (If you attack with both of your dominant hands and the extra appendage. Each mutation or implant that offers +1 attk/rnd is now +2 attk/rnd if using that attack form.
C. R7 and Ambidex do not offer additional attacks for ROF weapons. You can use a gun in each hand with no penalties. Pointing and pulling a trigger is easier than manipulating a melee weapon.
D. Ambidex does not offer additional attacks for MA.
Is this right?
I think this is it!
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