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Post by maxstone on Aug 13, 2013 12:51:16 GMT -8
What are the actions allowed to the players per round? From the first lines on page 103 I see that one PC can perform one action or one combined action... but what are these exactly? please correct me If I say something wrong, I'm at the beginning of a game session and it's better to clear all doubts now ( well, maybe I'm a bit late already!). walk & melee - think it's possible walk & shoot - SV -10 run & shoot - SV-15 run & melee - run/walk & change weapon - reload - 1 turn? take a weapon from the backpack - 1 turn? and what if the weapon is in a backpack? I'm a bit confused even with ambidextrous PCs. They can wield two 1handed weapons with no penalty, ok I get that. But can they perform 2 melee attacks per round( before Rank 7 )? And can they shot 2 one handed weapons per turn? Can non ambidextrous PCs do that too, SV penalties applied? And finally, what about making one melee and one ranged attack in one turn? My head hurts . I understand these questions are quite noobish, sorry about that but this the very first RPG I try .
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Post by providence13 on Aug 13, 2013 21:08:07 GMT -8
Brother, these questions are not noobish.
TME is a new game and might make some assumptions that don't translate well in the rules. I have some similar questions myself. We might have to read between the lines, a bit. Let's break it down.
In one 3 sec round, you can... Move your full Move; walk or run. You can move faster than this. The assumption is that you're trying to be safe, accurate, paying attention. .."all the while being vigilant for the many perils faced in the new era" (pg 103). What if you're not being vigilant? I have players make an END or AGI HC to move faster. AGI when based on terrain and END when based on how long they've been running, etc. (If you do the math, you'll find that many runners today can move faster than the standard Run Move in the rules.)If they're on a level, smooth track with the right shoes, they could run faster.
Walk and Melee: In my humble opinion, melee isn't static but requires you to move around. We use a table top grid, 1" or 2.5cm (most of our miniatures have this sized base) square represents 3m square* (In our fantasy RPG's we use 5' or 1.5m grids). I assume melee might require you to move freely within that 3m square. So, in my games, you can melee and this assumes movement 3m around you. Step, lunge, attack. No problem. If you want to move more than this 3m sphere of influence, I say you're using the 3 sec. round to Move. In my mind, the initiative only covers that specific 3 second round. If you move 6m and attack, with a Move of 5, then you spend an entire round moving before you can attack. Initiative may not matter in that situation. * Our grid is about 37" x 75" (89 X 190 cm). We sacrifice a bit of realism so we don't have to redraw the map as often. Smaller sized grids would allow the players to walk off the table in a few rounds.
Move and Shoot: -15 SV if you run or dodge. In my mind, this means using the Dodge skill. -10 if you walk and fire. So, yes, you can run or walk and fire.
Reloading: The Sniper skill gives us some insights on this. "A sniper must set and aim ..weapon on a stable base, ..to get.. advantages to the weapon’s strike value, and as with anyone making a carefully aimed shot, takes two rounds to prepare for each single shot or burst of fire. If a crossbow is used, or a new ammo magazine is needed, this chore takes additional round to reload and make careful aim." My understanding of this is any called shot takes 2 rounds, ideally. You can make a called shot in one/the same round, but the penalties are higher (pg 109). Also, reloading takes a round; 3 sec. This assumes a clip is readily available and not buried in a pack or rolled up in a sleeping bag. It's interesting to note that switching between single shot (per 3 sec rnd) and burst takes 1 round; 3 sec. "*This weapon can be set to single shot, which takes one round to do" (pg 100).
Melee and Ranged Attacks: Here it does get a bit tricky. As I understand the rules, there is a big difference between melee and ranged attacks. Everyone gets one "attack" per round. You can use one melee attack assuming you have arms or legs or a head butt, etc. to attack with. This assumes Rank 1 and Brawling or untrained. OR You get one ranged attack per round assuming you have some means of directing the weapon. You have hands to hold a gun or crossbow, etc.
If you have bladed limbs, mandibles, horns, gaping maw or fanged, (if real close) etc, you get an extra melee attack (for each one!) per round.
But even if you have all the above and you go berserk, you only get the normal rate of fire for firearms because you can't work the action faster than is mechanically possible. (Keep in mind the standard QWERTY keyboard was designed to slow you down so the mechanical letter arms on old typewriters didn't get stuck! Some guns are made so they don't over heat or get jammed but could fire faster if you -somehow- bypass the safety protocols. This should greatly increase fumble range and maybe a chance to explode.) If a gun has a rate of fire of 3, you get only 3 shots per round. It doesn't matter if you normally get 6 melee attacks.
One way to look at it is to make the 3 second round be a requirement for the attack. The rate of fire for your ranged weapon is all it can do in 3 seconds. It requires 3 seconds to shoot its ROF (rate of fire). If you want to mix, match, divide and do the math on 6 melee attacks OR 3 shots from an Assault Rifle, be my guest. (This might be awesome for an Equilibrium Gun Kata style game.)
With Martial Arts, the character now gets 2 melee attacks at Rank 1. If they go berserk the combatant can perform 4 melee attacks. This has nothing to do with how fast the cooling/recharge cycle is on a Laser Carbine. The ROF is for that 3 second round.
Ambidex: "The number of hands needed to effectively wield the weapon, especially to load it in the case of bows and crossbows; however, a strong person can hold up a carbine or shotgun in one hand and fire it, or possibly hold one assault rifle in each hand as she storms into a room. This feat requires a strength score of 50 or better, and the cumbersome weapon loses –10 SV. Plus, the off hand (if the shooter is not ambidextrous) suffers an additional –20 SV." pg 100. So, your guy is strong enough to carry that assault rifle in one hand. No problem, but you still get -10 SV. You want to carry an assault rifle in each hand? OK, its -10 per hand and the standard off-hand penalty or -20; that's -10 with the dominant hand and -30(!) with the off-hand. If you're ambidex, you just get the -10 for having a cumbersome weapon that usually requires 2 hands but you're using it in one hand.
I hope that helps a bit.
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Post by providence13 on Aug 13, 2013 21:31:52 GMT -8
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Post by maxstone on Aug 14, 2013 13:30:46 GMT -8
Thanks a lot Providence13, this is much clearer now. As always, an exhaustive and detailed answer . I'll print one chart for my friends so there will be no more confusion in combat. In our next session there will be some changes and not all of them will be well received I guess! Until now I let them swap weapons in one turn , even if in the backpack. Same for reloading... It's right to think that you can change a magazine in 3 seconds... if you have it in a pocket or a belt suited to carry them! Hope they won't complain too much
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Post by maxstone on Aug 14, 2013 13:59:22 GMT -8
Just a couple more question: Melee and Ranged Attacks:Here it does get a bit tricky. As I understand the rules, there is a big difference between melee and ranged attacks. Everyone gets one "attack" per round. You can use one melee attack assuming you have arms or legs or a head butt, etc. to attack with. This assumes Rank 1 and Brawling or untrained. ORYou get one ranged attack per round assuming you have some means of directing the weapon. You have hands to hold a gun or crossbow, etc.But even if you have all the above and you go berserk, you only get the normal rate of fire for firearms because you can't work the action faster than is mechanically possible. So basically, there's no way to fire more than the weapon rate of fire / round, unless you fire more guns simultaneously , right? And finally: Would you allow a rate of fire over-clock in you session? As you suggested, it could be possible. A gunsmith could alter it if skilled enough. It also would be super fun to modify the fumble range to 85-100 or 90-100 !
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Post by providence13 on Aug 14, 2013 21:24:47 GMT -8
Would I allow it? Sure! (I'm no expert on the subject. Most of the time I defer to my players who have far more experience and formal training in these matters.) If everyone could do it easily, then everyone would have already; that's how you'd find the guns. I'm assuming there is no regulatory governing board that is trying to make these items less lethal. The weapons are working about as well as they can without blowing up in your face. I think having a set Fumble Range is a bit generous for these kind of gun mods. If I allowed this in my group, there would be an escalating, ever increasing Fumble Range. Let's say the Fumble starts at '00', then after you exceed the ROF it increases by 5's/shot. If you get 3/rnd normally, let's assume the smith has jury rigged it up to 9, tells you it's safe, then takes the money and leaves town. You shoot the first 3 shots in a round and everything seems to work fine. The next round you go for 6. First 3 are normal and then 4th shot fumbles on 95-100, the 5th Fumbles on 90-100, 6th 85-100. You get carried away and are amazed at how fast the thing spits out bullets! The third round you let 'er rip and keep shooting until the GM makes you roll something that's not a Strike or Damage. First three are normal, 4th 95-100, 5th 90-100, 6th 85-100, 7th 80-100, 8th 75-100, 9th 70-100 is the Fumble Range. Hopefully the rest of the party is backing away from your maniacal grin. This is just a suggestion. It might actually just get worse each and every time you fire. My numbers might be too generous or too harsh. I would seriously consider lowering the SV bonus of the tricked out weapon, if any. Edit: As a House Rule I like to use a "changing target SV penalty." You want to keep firing but this guy is down and another is in sight; you have a few shots left this round. At least -10 SV/changed target shouldn't be a big loss for sighting and shooting multiple opponents in 3 sec. As long as your init beat his.. Additional Edit: If you like thinking about this sort of thing and rpg's in general, check out "3G3 Guns, Guns, Guns". This is a must for any GM who wants to use guns, pistols, explosives, bows and arrows, catapults, rail guns, lasers or any other weapon in a game. paizo.com/products/btpy7nyo?3G3-Guns-Guns-GunsDefinitely worth the money!
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Post by maxstone on Aug 15, 2013 6:49:25 GMT -8
I checked 3G3 out and it looks very interesting! I'll think about getting it and expand the relic selection!
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Post by providence13 on Aug 15, 2013 7:52:29 GMT -8
Thanks a lot Providence13, this is much clearer now. As always, an exhaustive and detailed answer . I'll print one chart for my friends so there will be no more confusion in combat. In our next session there will be some changes and not all of them will be well received I guess! Until now I let them swap weapons in one turn , even if in the backpack. Same for reloading... It's right to think that you can change a magazine in 3 seconds... if you have it in a pocket or a belt suited to carry them! Hope they won't complain too much Hey, man. You did ask a lot of questions and I wanted to explain my reasoning behind these crazy ideas of mine. If they balk at not being able to swap items or dig through a pack in 3 sec, tell them to demonstrate and you'll allow it. Put a $5 or €5, pack of smokes, or better yet a real ammo magazine if you have one, in a sleeping bag and tell them to get it out in 3 sec. Make sure the conditions are the same; strapped to their back or whatever. Time them with a stopwatch.
One of the nice things about a 3 sec rnd is you can generally avoid arguments by acting it out. with a longer round, 10 sec for other rpg's, it's harder to "put a fine point on it".
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Post by maxstone on Aug 15, 2013 8:34:55 GMT -8
Hehe the 3 seconds "test" gives a clear idea of what a PC can or cann't do. If arguements arise, I'll challenge them .
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Post by rexbannon on Aug 15, 2013 8:48:47 GMT -8
What if the PC's have ammo pouches on their belts? I ruled from the beginning that reloading takes up the whole 3 sec'd round and thats with the ammo pouches. There are certain things that must be governened in this game. Thanks for the 3G3 mention providence i think im also going to pick up this book. speaking of picking up books i so cant wait to get my hands on the new gazetter! my players are finally in pitford and the rocked the arena. Now Mitcho Lazuth wants them to eliminate rock spire as a threat to pitford to cement more income for himself. problem is there is only a brief description of the place in the pitford book. not enough to really go on. i need the maps to do it right.
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Post by providence13 on Aug 15, 2013 9:37:40 GMT -8
What if the PC's have ammo pouches on their belts? I ruled from the beginning that reloading takes up the whole 3 sec'd round and thats with the ammo pouches. There are certain things that must be governened in this game. Thanks for the 3G3 mention providence i think im also going to pick up this book. speaking of picking up books i so cant wait to get my hands on the new gazetter! my players are finally in pitford and the rocked the arena. Now Mitcho Lazuth wants them to eliminate rock spire as a threat to pitford to cement more income for himself. problem is there is only a brief description of the place in the pitford book. not enough to really go on. i need the maps to do it right. Yeah, I know what you mean! I bought the pdf of all the other books and had them laser printed. PDF's are great when you're trying to search for specific info or grabbing text for a chart or spreadsheet. I do want a hard copy of Crossroads; probably get the PDF too. My guys have just finished MOD, without actually exploring all of the mall. They are Rank 6-7. Pretty tough.. I can't wait until they get to Pitford. If I have to run Rockspire before the book is available, I'm thinking of a Masada like fortification. Pitford does give me some info on the place, if I remember correctly.
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Post by rexbannon on Aug 16, 2013 4:25:07 GMT -8
Yeah it gives a small blurb about it at the back of the book just before the index. Its like 1-2 pages if i remember correctly. Seems like a legit anti-pitford settlement, that could give any PC group a run for its money. I'm using it at the center of a big campaign in my epoch world. I took maxstones advice about the secret missions for characters and one of my PC's really got into his last game day. is secret mission was to find his sister who fled overpass to go to pitford and become a famous robotics technician. This PC's backstory was a little vacant so i told him that his father owned a gunsmith shop in overpass and wanted him and his sister to follow in his footsteps. But he had become very strict and unforgiving after the passing of their mother and was forced to raise them himself. His sister hates their father and once old enough she fled. The father tasked Doc holiday (no crap the PC's name lol) to track down his sister Janie and bring her back to overpass where she belongs. The PC's second character a PSH technician (no crap named Mcgyver lol again) Was the childhood friend of Janie and secretly in love with her, joined doc holiday to find Janie holiday. When he finally got to pitford he went straight to the robot lords shop. e had arrived to late his sister had just left for the day , so doc and mac ran into the street to find her. after a couple of blocks she came into sight in an almost abandoned part of the street. Just as they where about to call out to her she was ambushed by two street thugs and the PC's were attacked by the highly organized and well equipped pitford thievs guild. The pitford thievs guild is secretly owened and operated by the ABO and lead by Mitcho Lazuth. They are all equipped with studded leather armor and have stun pistols to do there jobs right. This group of theives waylaid the PC's long enough for one of the street thugs to knock janie unconsious and carry her away (classic double dragons style lol). Doc and Mac fight off the thieves and left before the city watch who had heard of the comotion from other citzens could arrive on the scene. His kid sister abducted doc holiday and the whole group decided to try there had at the arena to end the game session for that night. The entire party would fight in a battle royale for the championship, they bet large sums of money standing to gain back nearly 100k silver peices should they win. Mithco Lazuth is an enterprising man and could not and would not back down from this bet, but he set the terms . It was set up as a death match and the grand champion known as the centurion (Horse beastial) and seven giants (cant remember their name off hand lol) would be their opposition. The battle was epic, three of the PC's where knocked unconsious and one lay dead by the end but in the end the PC's had deafeted the challenge. Mitcho Lazuth was infuriated and banned the party from ever competing again. Not only had he lost 100k but he had lost his grand champion and seven of his best creatures. Doc holiday was sent an invite to speak with Mitcho and during the conversation doc had mentioned his sister being kidnapped earlier that day and was wondering if Mitcho could help him find her. Mitcho quickly realized that this was a golden opportunity to re-coup his losses and possible get his revenge on this upstart group of excavators so he offered doc holiday a deal. He told doc holiday that with his connections in the city he could surley get his sister back to him safe and sound if in return he would do him a favor. Doc holiday agreed and Mithco asked holiday and his group to eliminate rock spire as a threat to pitford in return for his help getting his sister back, but there was one stipulation. Doc holidays group had to complete the task within 60 days and Janie would be Mitcho guest of honor and want for nothing until they returned.
So rock spire is going to be the first grand scale campaign in my epoch world. the party doesnt need to totally destroy rock spire only eliminate them as a threat to pitford. But most of the party took it as rock spire must burn to the ground. From what it says in the pitford book rock spire is very well equipped with relic weaponry. although there community is small in numbers, the location of their city is nearly impregnable. Ill have the PC's take out the bridges that connect rockspire to the main plateau and kill a couple dozen flying mounted units. That should put a sizable dent in their efforts against pitford to satisfy and line mitchos pockets with money from the increase of people travlling to pitford. Later when the new book comes out and i have a layout and possibly enemy numbers and weaponry used, they can come back and wage war agaisnt rock spire. Should be an awesome campaign!
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Post by xhaosdaemon on Aug 16, 2013 16:12:04 GMT -8
I came up with a few house rules to address some things in combat, both melee and ranged;
To add an element of randomness when rolling initiative all players get to roll individual initative as do all the opponents (you may make groupings if you have a large amount of opponents). This reflects that combat is a non-static environment where individual fortunes ebb and flow (plus it fits into the gritty nature of the game).
Standard combat movement is 1/2 the individual's base movement in meters per round, reflecting a somewhat careful advance. Individuals may rush their opponent, increasing their movement to their base rate but they take a penalty of +10 to their DV to be hit due to their offensive focus.
When running and firing, the penalty to SV for ranged weapons is -20 not -15, to reflect that moving at double the rate doubles the difficulty of firing accurately (the penalty is still -10 SV for firing while walking).
When being attacked by acid, fire, or similar non-ballistic/environmental attacks DV is figured using only the target's Agility and Dodge modifiers (unless the armor specifically states it provides protection against the listed attack). Getting acid all over or being engulfed in flames is generally not affected by armor because acid soaks/drips through armor and fire can cook the target inside its armor.
After combat ends a character with Erotic Arts or Medic skill can minister to the wounded to restore Endurance equal to their Daily Healing Bonus for the skill. This represents suturing, cleaning, and bandaging wounds as needed.
Range Increments for Missile Weapons: To reflect a somewhat more realistic view of ranged combat I am splitting all missile weapon ranges into 4 categories; Short, Medium, Long, Very Long. Penalties will accrue to missile attack as follows: Short (no penalty), Medium (-10 SV), Long (-20 SV), and Very Long (-30 SV). The secondary range increment described in the book is renamed Extreme Range and halves the SV (after the penalty for Very Long Range) and damage roll.
(I tend to like a bit more granularity in my games so that's where all the ideas came from)
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Post by providence13 on Aug 16, 2013 20:17:45 GMT -8
Good rules xhaosdaemon! Thanks for the post and welcome to the open boards.
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Post by maxstone on Aug 18, 2013 7:24:40 GMT -8
Xhaosdaemon your rules are interesting and I'll surely use some of them! Fire and acid can't realistically be stopped by armors ( unless they're designed to do so, as you said) and this will be a good way to "punish" a bit some of my overpowered Rank 1 PCs (one starts with a ridiculous -37 dv ). I also like the SV malus applied on ballistic weapons , I think it can work well without slowing or complicating the gameplay too much.
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