Post by Mutant Lord: William McAusland on Apr 17, 2013 16:34:52 GMT -8
Stun Damage
by skullbrick » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:33 pm
Hello All,
I was wondering how other people on the boards here were handling stun damage, in regards to in-game effects. I've been using the 2-11 Table Injury and Death, on page 111. That is, I let stun damage heal quicker, but I also let it have lethal consequences down the line. It's possible to be beat to death or have your nervous system shut down from too many stun pistol blasts in the way I run things. A player in my group pointed out that the rulebook simply states on page 111 that a character is stunned upon reaching zero endurance with stun damage. I assume that means characters are incapacitated until their stun damage heals. He said my way essentially negated any reason for tracking stun damage, which I thought was a very good point. Anybody have any suggestions?
Re: Stun Damage
by WillMcAusland » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:59 am
You know, using table TME-2-11 on page 111 of the Hub Rules for stun damage makes a lot of sense. There have been a lot of boxers and street brawlers killed from blows to the head. I guy here in my home town was hit in the head by a bouncer and died on the sidewalk. Just a fluke punch but it did something sever to his brain.
Perhaps the risk of being hit by a relic stun weapon or mutation would do similar harm, maybe even stop one's heart. We are always hearing about people killed by the police when they use tasers... same sorta deal.
I'm gonna steal your house rule, or half of it. I think I'll let PCs who slide into the incapacitated and dying or dead column on table 2-11 to get a Willpower based hazard check. Type D, to avoid dying from some complication.
Will
Re: Stun Damage
by skullbrick » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:44 am
Hmmm... yeah, I'm liking that approach to the table. It definitely clears up my concern about my approach just being another "death track". My only question is: Between a Willpower hazard check and an Endurance hazard check, which is more appropriate to surviving stun trauma?
It also springs to mind that two hazard checks might be fun. That is, the first check is against death (Willpower?). The second would be against permanent attribute damage, i.e., lowered Endurance due to nerve damage in the heart or even mental retardation and insanity with neurological damage (Endurance?). Then again, my players hate me enough, as is. Much obliged for the new perspective.
Re: Stun Damage
by WillMcAusland » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:34 pm
Yeah, I was first going with endurance, but some huge characters or creatures would always pass it, even if they had a tiny, weak brain. Intelligence Maybe? Perhaps a separate table is needed that has a variety of fates, each calling on a different hazard check and trait.
Perhaps a d6 roll:
1,2. Brain damage, permanent loss of d6 to each of Intelligence, perception, accuracy and agility
3,4. Brain Trauma, make a type D intelligence hazard check or slip into a coma for 3d6 +10 days, with a 3% chance of dying per day.
5. Heart attack: Make an endurance based (using undamaged trait value)
6. Nervous system damage, -2d6 Perception, -d6 Accuracy, -d6 Agility,
A much longer list could be created, with even more sever perils.
Thoughts?
Re: Stun Damage
by skullbrick » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:28 am
Intelligence would be interesting for neurological trauma, just from a fluff perspective. It reminds me of when heroes focus on a poem or a snatch of doggerel to avoid being driven insane in old stories. For pure balance, Willpower makes a lot more sense.
How about starting with the random hit table (TME 2-7, pg. 106) and the called shot rules? Less specifically, is the damage applied to an appendage, the torso, or the head? Then separate the damage results. Blunt force stun (fists, clubs, flat of blades, etc.) could cause plain nerve damage. Neurological stun (electrocution, sonic weapons, stun pistols, etc.) results in brain damage. A Willpower hazard check would be needed for nerve damage. An Intelligence hazard check would be needed for brain damage. All effects appear after the character has recovered from the stun damage incapacitation, except for Comatose results.
Blunt Force Stun Effects
Nerve Damage to Appendages: 1d6
1. Dulled: Willpower HC B, or: Agility for actions involving appendage is reduced by 1d6 for 1d6 days, after which the conditions heals.
2. Shakes: Willpower HC B, or: -2d6 to Accuracy for 2d6+6 days.
3. Seized: Willpower HC C, or: The appendage is cramped up and completely useless for 3d6 minutes.
4. Chronic Pain: Willpower HC C, or: Character has a 35% chance of suffering distracting pain every time the weather changes. An Endurance HC C must be made, or the character suffers -1d6 to Intelligence and Accuracy for 1d6 hours.
5. Tremens: Willpower HC D, or: As Shakes, but Accuracy reduction is permanent, as is a -1d6 reduction in agility.
6. Dead Nerve Cluster: Willpower HC D, or: Appendage is rendered largely useless, with a permanent -3d6 reduction in Agility and Accuracy for all actions in which it is used. The appendage will begin to atrophy in 1d6 months, during which the character loses 1d6 Strength.
Nerve Damage to Torso: 1d6
1. Shaken: Willpower HC B, or: Movement is reduced by -1 for 1d6 hours.
2. Shock: Willpower HC B, or: Character suffers Shaken. Agility and Accuracy are reduced by -1d6 for 1d6+3 days.
3. Loss of Fine Motor Control: Willpower HC C, or: Movement is permanently reduced by -.25. Accuracy is reduced by -1d6.
4. Involuntary Diaphragm Spasm/Myoclonus: Willpower HC C, or: Character suffers a permanent -1d6 to Accuracy and Agility. Movement is reduced by -.5.
5. Cardiac Arrhythmia: Willpower HC D, or: Characters movement is permanently reduced by 1. Strength and Endurance are permanently reduced by -2d6.
6. Heart Attack, Willpower HC D, or: 1d100 damage, and character must make an Endurance HC D check, or die outright.
Neurological Stun Effects
Brain Damage: 1d6
1. Aphasia: Intelligence HC A, or: Character suffers a 1d3 penalty trait penalty on all hazard checks involving social interaction (Barter, Lying, Disguise Artist, Negotiating, etc.). Trait is not actually reduced for other hazard check purposes
2. Neurocognitive Deficit: Intelligence HC B, or: -2d6 to Perception, -1d6 to Accuracy and Intelligence, and character suffers effects of Aphasia.
3. Palsy: Intelligence HC C, or: Permanent loss of -1d6 to Intelligence, Perception, Accuracy, and Agility.
4. Comatose: Intelligence HC D, or: Character slips into coma for 3d6+10 days, and has a 3% chance of dying each day.
5. Insanity: Intelligence HC D, or: As Palsy, but an additional random, permanent insanity is rolled from pg. 126.
6. Catatonia: Intelligence HC D, or: As Neurocognitive Deficit and Comatose, but comatose state is chronic. Bimonthly, or when in a situation of extreme stress, the character has a 23% chance of slipping back into a comatose state, as detailed in Brain Trauma.
It feels too complicated for the kind of game I would run, but maybe somebody could put it to use.
Re: Stun Damage
by WillMcAusland » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:54 pm
Oh, this Stun Damage Table is excellent stuff. I think it’s ready for he House rules page on the website... or the magazine. Wanna test it a bit first? Anybody else out there reading this want to give a shot at their next game?
WM
Re: Stun Damage
by skullbrick » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:57 am
Thanks for giving it a name. I was calling it: "The Stun Overload Table", but that's just unwieldy.
I tried it out with a couple of throw-away characters in 4 combats. Both were armed with clubs and stun pistols. From the outset, it was obvious that tracking damage type as I specified was pointless. It added nothing to the overall experience, other than book keeping. To correct that, I'd recommend just tracking hit location for stun damage (appendages, torso, head). I also found that stun overload results trended more towards the 3-6 results on the tables, i.e. the more severe ones. This could well have been just my dice, but the tables could be heavy-handed for a lot of GMs. Does anybody here think they are a bit too much, coupled with the overall dire mortality rates of the game? I still think it fits the feel of the game pretty well, but I've been running this game in a pretty unforgiving fashion.
I'd be delighted to see the table in either place. It needs to be edited and clarified first, though. Just let me know what kind of formatting you'd like and where you want me to send it, if need be.
by WillMcAusland » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:29 am
Maybe a bell curve using 2d6 might be less brutal, yet still offer the potential for some serious harm. The less life alerting or life ending results could be in the 5-8 range.
Maybe:
2.
3,4
5-9.
8,10.
11.
12.
Re: Stun Damage
by skullbrick » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:38 am
I apologize for the long delay. I've altered the first two tables, as per your suggestions. I kept my brain damage table as is, largely because I feel that sort of damage should be brutal and unforgiving. I was finally able to test the original tables in my "Epoch/Disgenesia" campaign, albeit on some NPCs as a side roll after the game was finished. The results were all over the place, instead of skewed toward the worst, as in my test run. I do think I prefer your suggestions for updating the table numerically, though. Now I just need to firm up the rules for when the tables are to be used.
Here is my attempt at the updated tables for anyone who is interested:
Stun Damage Effects
Nerve Damage to Appendages: 2d6
2. Seized: Willpower HC C, or: The appendage is cramped up and completely useless for 3d6 minutes.
3,4. Shakes: Willpower HC B, or: -2d6 to Accuracy for 2d6+6 days.
5-8. Dulled: Willpower HC B, or: Agility for actions involving appendage is reduced by 1d6 for 1d6 days, after which the conditions heals.
9,10. Chronic Pain: Willpower HC C, or: Character has a 35% chance of suffering distracting pain every time the weather changes. An Endurance HC C must be made, or the character suffers -1d6 to Intelligence and Accuracy for 1d6 hours.
11. Tremens: Willpower HC D, or: As Shakes, but Accuracy reduction is permanent, as is a -1d6 reduction in agility.
12. Dead Nerve Cluster: Willpower HC D, or: Appendage is rendered largely useless, with a permanent -3d6 reduction in Agility and Accuracy for all actions in which it is used. The appendage will begin to atrophy in 1d6 months, during which the character loses 1d6 Strength.
Nerve Damage to Torso: 2d6
2. Loss of Fine Motor Control: Willpower HC C, or: Movement is permanently reduced by -.25. Accuracy is reduced by -1d6.
3,4. Shock: Willpower HC B, or: Character suffers Shaken. Agility and Accuracy are reduced by -1d6 for 1d6+3 days.
5-8. Shaken: Willpower HC B, or: Movement is reduced by -1 for 1d6 hours.
9,10. Involuntary Diaphragm Spasm/Myoclonus: Willpower HC C, or: Character suffers a permanent -1d6 to Accuracy and Agility. Movement is reduced by -.5.
11. Cardiac Arrhythmia: Willpower HC D, or: Characters movement is permanently reduced by 1. Strength and Endurance are permanently reduced by -2d6.
12. Heart Attack, Willpower HC D, or: 1d100 damage, and character must make an Endurance HC D check, or die outright.
Brain Damage: 1d6
1. Aphasia: Intelligence HC A, or: Character suffers a 1d3 penalty trait penalty on all hazard checks involving social interaction (Barter, Lying, Disguise Artist, Negotiating, etc.). Trait is not actually reduced for other hazard check purposes
2. Neurocognitive Deficit: Intelligence HC B, or: -2d6 to Perception, -1d6 to Accuracy and Intelligence, and character suffers effects of Aphasia.
3. Palsy: Intelligence HC C, or: Permanent loss of 1d6 to Intelligence, Perception, Accuracy, and Agility.
4. Comatose: Intelligence HC D, or: Character slips into coma for 3d6+10 days, and has a 3% chance of dying each day.
5. Insanity: Intelligence HC D, or: As Palsy, but an additional random, permanent insanity is rolled from pg. 126.
6. Catatonia: Intelligence HC D, or: As Neurocognitive Deficit and Comatose, but comatose state is chronic. Bimonthly, or when in a situation of extreme stress, the character has a 23% chance of slipping back into a comatose state, as detailed in Comatose.
by skullbrick » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:33 pm
Hello All,
I was wondering how other people on the boards here were handling stun damage, in regards to in-game effects. I've been using the 2-11 Table Injury and Death, on page 111. That is, I let stun damage heal quicker, but I also let it have lethal consequences down the line. It's possible to be beat to death or have your nervous system shut down from too many stun pistol blasts in the way I run things. A player in my group pointed out that the rulebook simply states on page 111 that a character is stunned upon reaching zero endurance with stun damage. I assume that means characters are incapacitated until their stun damage heals. He said my way essentially negated any reason for tracking stun damage, which I thought was a very good point. Anybody have any suggestions?
Re: Stun Damage
by WillMcAusland » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:59 am
You know, using table TME-2-11 on page 111 of the Hub Rules for stun damage makes a lot of sense. There have been a lot of boxers and street brawlers killed from blows to the head. I guy here in my home town was hit in the head by a bouncer and died on the sidewalk. Just a fluke punch but it did something sever to his brain.
Perhaps the risk of being hit by a relic stun weapon or mutation would do similar harm, maybe even stop one's heart. We are always hearing about people killed by the police when they use tasers... same sorta deal.
I'm gonna steal your house rule, or half of it. I think I'll let PCs who slide into the incapacitated and dying or dead column on table 2-11 to get a Willpower based hazard check. Type D, to avoid dying from some complication.
Will
Re: Stun Damage
by skullbrick » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:44 am
Hmmm... yeah, I'm liking that approach to the table. It definitely clears up my concern about my approach just being another "death track". My only question is: Between a Willpower hazard check and an Endurance hazard check, which is more appropriate to surviving stun trauma?
It also springs to mind that two hazard checks might be fun. That is, the first check is against death (Willpower?). The second would be against permanent attribute damage, i.e., lowered Endurance due to nerve damage in the heart or even mental retardation and insanity with neurological damage (Endurance?). Then again, my players hate me enough, as is. Much obliged for the new perspective.
Re: Stun Damage
by WillMcAusland » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:34 pm
Yeah, I was first going with endurance, but some huge characters or creatures would always pass it, even if they had a tiny, weak brain. Intelligence Maybe? Perhaps a separate table is needed that has a variety of fates, each calling on a different hazard check and trait.
Perhaps a d6 roll:
1,2. Brain damage, permanent loss of d6 to each of Intelligence, perception, accuracy and agility
3,4. Brain Trauma, make a type D intelligence hazard check or slip into a coma for 3d6 +10 days, with a 3% chance of dying per day.
5. Heart attack: Make an endurance based (using undamaged trait value)
6. Nervous system damage, -2d6 Perception, -d6 Accuracy, -d6 Agility,
A much longer list could be created, with even more sever perils.
Thoughts?
Re: Stun Damage
by skullbrick » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:28 am
Intelligence would be interesting for neurological trauma, just from a fluff perspective. It reminds me of when heroes focus on a poem or a snatch of doggerel to avoid being driven insane in old stories. For pure balance, Willpower makes a lot more sense.
How about starting with the random hit table (TME 2-7, pg. 106) and the called shot rules? Less specifically, is the damage applied to an appendage, the torso, or the head? Then separate the damage results. Blunt force stun (fists, clubs, flat of blades, etc.) could cause plain nerve damage. Neurological stun (electrocution, sonic weapons, stun pistols, etc.) results in brain damage. A Willpower hazard check would be needed for nerve damage. An Intelligence hazard check would be needed for brain damage. All effects appear after the character has recovered from the stun damage incapacitation, except for Comatose results.
Blunt Force Stun Effects
Nerve Damage to Appendages: 1d6
1. Dulled: Willpower HC B, or: Agility for actions involving appendage is reduced by 1d6 for 1d6 days, after which the conditions heals.
2. Shakes: Willpower HC B, or: -2d6 to Accuracy for 2d6+6 days.
3. Seized: Willpower HC C, or: The appendage is cramped up and completely useless for 3d6 minutes.
4. Chronic Pain: Willpower HC C, or: Character has a 35% chance of suffering distracting pain every time the weather changes. An Endurance HC C must be made, or the character suffers -1d6 to Intelligence and Accuracy for 1d6 hours.
5. Tremens: Willpower HC D, or: As Shakes, but Accuracy reduction is permanent, as is a -1d6 reduction in agility.
6. Dead Nerve Cluster: Willpower HC D, or: Appendage is rendered largely useless, with a permanent -3d6 reduction in Agility and Accuracy for all actions in which it is used. The appendage will begin to atrophy in 1d6 months, during which the character loses 1d6 Strength.
Nerve Damage to Torso: 1d6
1. Shaken: Willpower HC B, or: Movement is reduced by -1 for 1d6 hours.
2. Shock: Willpower HC B, or: Character suffers Shaken. Agility and Accuracy are reduced by -1d6 for 1d6+3 days.
3. Loss of Fine Motor Control: Willpower HC C, or: Movement is permanently reduced by -.25. Accuracy is reduced by -1d6.
4. Involuntary Diaphragm Spasm/Myoclonus: Willpower HC C, or: Character suffers a permanent -1d6 to Accuracy and Agility. Movement is reduced by -.5.
5. Cardiac Arrhythmia: Willpower HC D, or: Characters movement is permanently reduced by 1. Strength and Endurance are permanently reduced by -2d6.
6. Heart Attack, Willpower HC D, or: 1d100 damage, and character must make an Endurance HC D check, or die outright.
Neurological Stun Effects
Brain Damage: 1d6
1. Aphasia: Intelligence HC A, or: Character suffers a 1d3 penalty trait penalty on all hazard checks involving social interaction (Barter, Lying, Disguise Artist, Negotiating, etc.). Trait is not actually reduced for other hazard check purposes
2. Neurocognitive Deficit: Intelligence HC B, or: -2d6 to Perception, -1d6 to Accuracy and Intelligence, and character suffers effects of Aphasia.
3. Palsy: Intelligence HC C, or: Permanent loss of -1d6 to Intelligence, Perception, Accuracy, and Agility.
4. Comatose: Intelligence HC D, or: Character slips into coma for 3d6+10 days, and has a 3% chance of dying each day.
5. Insanity: Intelligence HC D, or: As Palsy, but an additional random, permanent insanity is rolled from pg. 126.
6. Catatonia: Intelligence HC D, or: As Neurocognitive Deficit and Comatose, but comatose state is chronic. Bimonthly, or when in a situation of extreme stress, the character has a 23% chance of slipping back into a comatose state, as detailed in Brain Trauma.
It feels too complicated for the kind of game I would run, but maybe somebody could put it to use.
Re: Stun Damage
by WillMcAusland » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:54 pm
Oh, this Stun Damage Table is excellent stuff. I think it’s ready for he House rules page on the website... or the magazine. Wanna test it a bit first? Anybody else out there reading this want to give a shot at their next game?
WM
Re: Stun Damage
by skullbrick » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:57 am
Thanks for giving it a name. I was calling it: "The Stun Overload Table", but that's just unwieldy.
I tried it out with a couple of throw-away characters in 4 combats. Both were armed with clubs and stun pistols. From the outset, it was obvious that tracking damage type as I specified was pointless. It added nothing to the overall experience, other than book keeping. To correct that, I'd recommend just tracking hit location for stun damage (appendages, torso, head). I also found that stun overload results trended more towards the 3-6 results on the tables, i.e. the more severe ones. This could well have been just my dice, but the tables could be heavy-handed for a lot of GMs. Does anybody here think they are a bit too much, coupled with the overall dire mortality rates of the game? I still think it fits the feel of the game pretty well, but I've been running this game in a pretty unforgiving fashion.
I'd be delighted to see the table in either place. It needs to be edited and clarified first, though. Just let me know what kind of formatting you'd like and where you want me to send it, if need be.
by WillMcAusland » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:29 am
Maybe a bell curve using 2d6 might be less brutal, yet still offer the potential for some serious harm. The less life alerting or life ending results could be in the 5-8 range.
Maybe:
2.
3,4
5-9.
8,10.
11.
12.
Re: Stun Damage
by skullbrick » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:38 am
I apologize for the long delay. I've altered the first two tables, as per your suggestions. I kept my brain damage table as is, largely because I feel that sort of damage should be brutal and unforgiving. I was finally able to test the original tables in my "Epoch/Disgenesia" campaign, albeit on some NPCs as a side roll after the game was finished. The results were all over the place, instead of skewed toward the worst, as in my test run. I do think I prefer your suggestions for updating the table numerically, though. Now I just need to firm up the rules for when the tables are to be used.
Here is my attempt at the updated tables for anyone who is interested:
Stun Damage Effects
Nerve Damage to Appendages: 2d6
2. Seized: Willpower HC C, or: The appendage is cramped up and completely useless for 3d6 minutes.
3,4. Shakes: Willpower HC B, or: -2d6 to Accuracy for 2d6+6 days.
5-8. Dulled: Willpower HC B, or: Agility for actions involving appendage is reduced by 1d6 for 1d6 days, after which the conditions heals.
9,10. Chronic Pain: Willpower HC C, or: Character has a 35% chance of suffering distracting pain every time the weather changes. An Endurance HC C must be made, or the character suffers -1d6 to Intelligence and Accuracy for 1d6 hours.
11. Tremens: Willpower HC D, or: As Shakes, but Accuracy reduction is permanent, as is a -1d6 reduction in agility.
12. Dead Nerve Cluster: Willpower HC D, or: Appendage is rendered largely useless, with a permanent -3d6 reduction in Agility and Accuracy for all actions in which it is used. The appendage will begin to atrophy in 1d6 months, during which the character loses 1d6 Strength.
Nerve Damage to Torso: 2d6
2. Loss of Fine Motor Control: Willpower HC C, or: Movement is permanently reduced by -.25. Accuracy is reduced by -1d6.
3,4. Shock: Willpower HC B, or: Character suffers Shaken. Agility and Accuracy are reduced by -1d6 for 1d6+3 days.
5-8. Shaken: Willpower HC B, or: Movement is reduced by -1 for 1d6 hours.
9,10. Involuntary Diaphragm Spasm/Myoclonus: Willpower HC C, or: Character suffers a permanent -1d6 to Accuracy and Agility. Movement is reduced by -.5.
11. Cardiac Arrhythmia: Willpower HC D, or: Characters movement is permanently reduced by 1. Strength and Endurance are permanently reduced by -2d6.
12. Heart Attack, Willpower HC D, or: 1d100 damage, and character must make an Endurance HC D check, or die outright.
Brain Damage: 1d6
1. Aphasia: Intelligence HC A, or: Character suffers a 1d3 penalty trait penalty on all hazard checks involving social interaction (Barter, Lying, Disguise Artist, Negotiating, etc.). Trait is not actually reduced for other hazard check purposes
2. Neurocognitive Deficit: Intelligence HC B, or: -2d6 to Perception, -1d6 to Accuracy and Intelligence, and character suffers effects of Aphasia.
3. Palsy: Intelligence HC C, or: Permanent loss of 1d6 to Intelligence, Perception, Accuracy, and Agility.
4. Comatose: Intelligence HC D, or: Character slips into coma for 3d6+10 days, and has a 3% chance of dying each day.
5. Insanity: Intelligence HC D, or: As Palsy, but an additional random, permanent insanity is rolled from pg. 126.
6. Catatonia: Intelligence HC D, or: As Neurocognitive Deficit and Comatose, but comatose state is chronic. Bimonthly, or when in a situation of extreme stress, the character has a 23% chance of slipping back into a comatose state, as detailed in Comatose.