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Post by rexbannon on Dec 2, 2013 5:13:17 GMT -8
So me and my group play for three days straight during the thanksgiving break. We ran into a couple profound questions that really stumped us.
First is the topic of swimming. In the hub rules each character rolls for how well they can swim, cant swim, poor, fair, good, strong, excellent etc etc. But it gives no break down as to how far a character can swim? We came up with the idea of it being half of your movement on land. But this still doesnt account for the varying levels of skill in swimming. Would a poor swimmer that has 6M MV on land move 3M in the water, probably. But what about the same character with a excellent skill level in swimming? how do i determine the swimming movement rate for this character? Also would strenght and agility give bonuses to the swimming skill?
Second is the topic of Lifting. How much can a character lift in kilograms based on the trait value, and what would be the hazard check difficulty for a combined strenght check to topple over a tank?
for example: My players killed a Huge Worm that was attacking them from the ceiling. Once they killed it the worms body slowly leaked out on the ceiling and actually filled in the door frame trapping the players in one of the stores of the mall of doom. We did the math and the worm weighed 1356 lbs / 600 KG. I had all six characters make STR based HC checks together to move the huge worm out of the way in order to escape. But even still having some type of chart that determines how much one can lift based on STR Trait value would be great. Then i could determine as GM when a HC is needed a lot easier.
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Post by rexbannon on Dec 2, 2013 5:46:30 GMT -8
Also, If a right handed cyborg with a pincer and a shotgun can he attack with both in the same round? In the book it says that pincers and cyberarms are usually installed in the spot of the non-dominant arm. So would he be able to attack with the pincer and shotgun at the same time? the pincer would effectively trap a creature in his grip and then he could shot the creature with the shotgun and get a bonus to his strike value since the creature cant move? I think this is way overkill for a cyborg character but i couldnt come up with a legit reason that he couldnt do this, besides the fact that i didnt like it being possible.
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Post by providence13 on Dec 2, 2013 9:10:14 GMT -8
..right handed cyborg with a pincer and a shotgun can he attack with both in the same round? In the book it says that pincers and cyberarms are usually installed in the spot of the non-dominant arm. So would he be able to attack with the pincer and shotgun at the same time? the pincer would effectively trap a creature in his grip and then he could shoot the creature with the shotgun and get a bonus to his strike value since the creature cant move? I think this is way overkill for a cyborg character but i couldnt come up with a legit reason that he couldnt do this, besides the fact that i didnt like it being possible. I come across this stuff too. Sometimes I have make up something on the spot. Sometimes that comes back to haunt me whether I like it or not.  "Sure, why not. Goose/Gander". Claw implants are about to get more popular. Here's my crazy thinking. This is just how I see it. What is his Rank? How strong? Is he a trained Martial Artist? At Ranks 1-6 he only has one attack/rnd. Doesn't matter what kind of attack that is. It can be shotgun or claw. If he attacks with the claw and hits, pg 90 states that the next rnd, he can automatically do d10+12/rnd as it continues to crush the target; if he wants. Now automatically sounds like he doesn't have to roll to strike because he's locked on. I'm making this complicated, but does automatically mean that the claw is on autopilot continually applying pressure without him having to think about it. If you've ever stuck something near a lobster or crab, I get the feeling that their instinct is to lock down and it might actually be hard to let go. It would be inconvenient to have this kind of slow to unlock claw implant; attacking a car door with your super tough, super strong claw and the driver decides to drive away.. I wouldn't want that kind of claw. So, I'd rule that he has to think about this automatic crushing claw damage. If he has to think about it, then it's one of his attacks in my game! (Now if it gets damaged (DV-33, END 30+D20), like down to half, I'm the kind of GM that might make the implant respond a bit twitchy, malfunction and perhaps unable to unlock.. haha. But I'd make a roll based on the amount of damage incurred, tell the player the number, be consistent and use that formula each and every time. It pays to keep your costly cybernetics in tip top shape.*) I know this is roundabout but stay with me! The way I read it, If he has martial arts or is Rank 7+, he gets more than 1 attack/rnd. The shotgun can only fire once before it has to be pumped. Assuming a normal pump shotgun, it only gets one attack/rnd anyway. His claw is locked onto a target and you could allow that to be the 2nd hand in the pump shotgun requirement of 2 hands, not incurring the "less than 2 hands penalty" the weapon requires; pg 100 #2. (On another note, I have concerns about a 90 STR claw implant pumping the shotgun, for the next shot, next rnd. It might be hard to use the 2 together and cause wear and tear on the weapon. Wouldn't be my weapon of choice for that character, but I know the MOD is all about using whatever you can to survive. It's a wicked place.) But the penalty isn't that much as long as he has the STR to wield it one handed for that one shot. No matter how many attacks he gets, the shotgun can only attack once. I tell my players that it takes the whole 3 sec rnd to use non-melee weapons as the book describes. Shotguns are 1 shot per rnd, so it takes 3 sec to aim and fire. The claw implant ony gives him an extra attack if it's an additional appendage. Doesn't sound like that's the case. You could rule that using his shotgun, a non-melee weapon, is his entire 3 sec rnd. He doesn't release his claw hand, but he doesn't do crush damage the rnd he fires. Lock now and then he gets to fire next rnd (where I'd allow him to do what he wanted, it just takes another rnd). That would be a bit nit picky for my game, but I'd respect your ruling, as my GM. If he gets more than one attack/rnd, I would allow him to lock on with the claw and fire his shot gun. It's cinematic, fun for the players, makes a hell of a story and the enemy can do it too. If you were a player, would it be totally freaking cool to do that? Goose/Gander. |
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Post by providence13 on Dec 2, 2013 9:53:07 GMT -8
First is the topic of swimming. In the hub rules each character rolls for how well they can swim, cant swim, poor, fair, good, strong, excellent etc etc. But it gives no break down as to how far a character can swim? We came up with the idea of it being half of your movement on land. But this still doesnt account for the varying levels of skill in swimming. Would a poor swimmer that has 6M MV on land move 3M in the water, probably. But what about the same character with a excellent skill level in swimming? how do i determine the swimming movement rate for this character? Also would strenght and agility give bonuses to the swimming skill? I'll take a crack at it. Doing a quick search, I turned up 1-2 kph for most people. The fastest person is Michael Phelps, I believe, who can muster ~7.1kph. That translates to ~6m/3 sec rnd. Let's say Swimming is a Skill (pg 16) from 0 to 4 skill points. 0 Can't swim, (probably a C HC or drown..) 1 Poor Swimmer = .5m/rnd 2 Fair Swimmer = 1m/rnd 3 Strong Swimmer = 2/rnd 4 Excellent Swimmer = 3m/rnd Now we have a baseline, let's mod that with the AGI Move Rate bonus from pg 10, Trait Table. An excellent swimmer with Olympic level stats could pull off a rate like Michael Phelps. If you wanted, you could add the STR Range % as a bonus to the Swimming Movement Rate. If my understanding is correct, this works out pretty close to real world values. Using this device, swimmers claim to hit ~8mph/12.8kph. So a dolphin tail mutation (pg 74) or implant would be about right with the rules. www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=dolphin-inspired-man-made-fin&sc=WR_20090303 |
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Post by providence13 on Dec 2, 2013 10:00:46 GMT -8
Second is the topic of Lifting. How much can a character lift in kilograms based on the trait value, and what would be the hazard check difficulty for a combined strenght check to topple over a tank? for example: My players killed a Huge Worm that was attacking them from the ceiling. Once they killed it the worms body slowly leaked out on the ceiling and actually filled in the door frame trapping the players in one of the stores of the mall of doom. We did the math and the worm weighed 1356 lbs / 600 KG. I had all six characters make STR based HC checks together to move the huge worm out of the way in order to escape. But even still having some type of chart that determines how much one can lift based on STR Trait value would be great. Then i could determine as GM when a HC is needed a lot easier. Throughout the book, STR in kg is what you can lift with one hand. I assume you can still move, let's say at 1/2, to pull a number out of the air. So, I'd go with 2x STR in kg and you can move 1/4 Movement/rnd. Compare this with the max lift/press over the years.. wait a minute. This sounds familiar. Let me look around.. |
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Post by providence13 on Dec 2, 2013 10:03:51 GMT -8
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Post by rexbannon on Dec 3, 2013 5:40:29 GMT -8
My thanks for the speedy response Prov13! You broke down the swimming brilliantly! This i can use again and again. I remembered that we had talked about lifting before but i couldnt find it on the forum. so thanks for finding it. it was really helpful. This cyborg also has a tenticle in his shoulder that he can choke enemies with. so he can pincer someone and then send his tenticle from his shoulder (which btw is on the shoulder of the pincer arm) to choke the captive being crushed by the pincer. this will equal two attacks and i wont allow him to shot the victim with the shotgun at the same time as it would be three attacks. Yeah we had a blast playing for three days. the characters decided to take a brief break from the MOD and hired themselves on with some Bounty hunters in search of a savage chieftin. This chieftin had raided and killed an entire caravan to get the special cargo that they were transporting. A high price was put on his head, an bounty hunters from all over were in search of him. His tribe the (BAD RIVER TRIBE) was living approx. two days northwest of walsave in a small valley in the badlands. There the party encountered the tribe and tried to be sneaky at first and use their mental mutations to pick off some of the roving guards to clear a straight path to the chieftins tent. This however did not work and they were spotted. The ensuing battle took two whole days of real time to complete. The players nearly slaughtered the entire village trying to capture the chief an escape. At the end of it all some 53 savage braves lay dead, 2 out 30 tents burned to the ground one of which housed 4 adult women an 3 small children. the special cargo got away with two savages on a canoe and 6 braves on riding dogs managed to also escape.
The cargo was a beastial elephant male 18 years old, from the steppe lands to the far south. These creatures are vastly strong and the chief believed that with this elephant man on his side he would be able to unite some of the savage tribes. instead he got captured and hanged for his crimes an his villaged got descimated. its funny cause no pun intended but my players dont play around. They tried to do it legit and then it became a huge mess so they rolled with it.
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Post by providence13 on Dec 3, 2013 8:45:43 GMT -8
Sounds like a brutal game! What Rank are the PC's after all of that? Nicely designed adventure. You should write it up and submit it to the forums, at least. |
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Post by providence13 on Dec 3, 2013 10:25:17 GMT -8
This cyborg also has a tentacle in his shoulder that he can choke enemies with. so he can pincer someone and then send his tentacle from his shoulder (which btw is on the shoulder of the pincer arm) to choke the captive being crushed by the pincer. this will equal two attacks and i wont allow him to shot the victim with the shotgun at the same time as it would be three attacks. I hear you brother. Your game, your rules! This is just me trying to wrap my head around the issue before it comes up in my game. Not trying to challenge your ruling. I just love to talk about these issues. After re-reading the grapple rules, I wonder if it's a stretch to have someone grappled and shoot them with a gun. For me, I guess it could be possible. Don't know if I like it though. We agree. You get init, and make the melee attack with your huge mechanical claw. Assuming he gets more than one melee attack/rnd*, he could then make a grapple attack.** (Randy Mandibles (PC) starting with 2 Brawling melee attacks at 8th Rank, can make a horn attack (+1 melee attack), mandible attack (+1 melee attack) = 4 melee attacks. If he goes berserk, he is a freaking killing machine if he uses horns AND mandibles AND Katana. Glad he only has Brawling and not MA. If he wanted to grapple, I would say it takes all of his "normal limb attacks", couldn't use his katana as he needs his arms and legs to attempt the grapple, and he could then only attack with horns and mandibles, but they could benefit from the added berserk.) If the borg wanted to make a "choke attack" with the tentacle, I'd enforce the called shots rules, pg 109. "Shoot or stab the brain" says specifically that you're aiming for the head. This incurs a -44/-22 penalty, whether you spend attack this rnd or spend an extra rnd aiming. (I could see an argument that using the lesser penalty, -22, is used since they are now held.) I could also see an argument that you use the full penalty, but the opponent can't use Dodge or AGI bonus because of their restricted movement; pinched by a claw. * (Throughout the rules, having a third appendage does allow an extra melee attack. Even w/o MA, or high Rank, I could see 2 attacks/rnd.) ** pg 39 "Once a strike occurs, the attacker must use both hands to attempt to swoop in and restrain the target. Using a single tentacle is a way around this. Now, the problem is can he also shoot with the gun in the same rnd? Probably not. Does the borg have any more attacks? I tell the players that Sprinting/Haste, Frenzy or anything else only adds to melee attacks. It doesn't make the action of a ranged weapon operate any faster. I sure hope the borg doesn't have any attacks left. Sounds like he only gets 2/rnd. I waffle on this but I don't know if melee should be mixed with ranged attacks. Although it would be darn cool. Maybe they can't do it until the magic Rank 7. Now if the borg had a Shoulder Turret implant (or the shoulder computer removed, reprogrammed and operating the tendril..), which operates basically on its own, or a mutant with Dual Mind mutation, I could see combining attacks, or mix and match. Ah hell, you know how to avoid avoid this other than just making a call (and GM calls are totally legit!)? Make it take a full rnd or even part of a rnd to deploy the tentacle.
Hypodermic Tendril state that it "whips out". Surveillance Tendril gives "reel in or out at 6m/rnd"! Doesn't say that for Tentacle Implant. It's only 6m long and specifically states that a "reel" is used. I'd say a minimum of 2m to attempt a choke. So, in my games it will take 1 rnd to deploy. Manipulator Tendril is also 1 rnd in my book. That's the price for reeling out in total silence; also implies other tentacle tendrils have some winching whining noise associated while in use; interesting. If you've claw pinched and tentacle choked in the previous rnd, then I could maybe see the borg attacking with the shotgun. But I could change my mind. The opponent could use grapple rules to try and break free, making a roll vs the combined STR of the claw and tentacle per pg 39. Thanks for the discussion. I think I'll force this issue in my game. It's the only way for me to really know. |
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