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Post by maxstone on Aug 6, 2013 16:24:38 GMT -8
From what I understand at page 108(TME 2-8) a PC can enter "parry mode" using whatever he wants to increase his total DV. From the list on page 101 (TME 1-72)I see that the best shield for melee is the tower shield (-10DV) which is the same of parrying with a knife for example, and worse than almost everything in the first table. Am I missing something?
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Post by providence13 on Aug 6, 2013 21:26:29 GMT -8
maxstone, You bring up a damn good point. I feel a good rant coming on. Shields aren't given much respect in TME. Maybe it's because some of the low tech armors can stack, combining protection. But that still doesn't explain why shields suck. In my humble opinion, each shield DV should be doubled vs melee attacks.I had to read the Parry section a few times before I understood it. Maybe I still don't. Here's my take on it; Using a shield increases your DV. You can use a shield and a chainsaw arm, for instance to attack and you still get the shield DV as per pg 101. But this isn't considered "parrying" in TME. Parrying described on pg 108 is completely forgoing your, one, attack to have a better defensive posture/stance. If you have the Weapon Expert skill in the item you are using to parry, or Martial Arts, you can add the SV bonus to your DV when parrying/blocking vs front and side physical attacks. The items on TME-2-8 give you an additional parry bonus if you aren't making any kind of attack. You're putting everything into defense. Example: You have WE:Machete (4) +10SV. Using a machete for only parry gives you a -22DV from the table.. Yeah, that's a lot. (More than 2 tower shields.) Forgoing your attack in this round, you could have -33DV by adding your WE SV to parry. But if you have a Machete Weapon Arm, the DV for parry now jumps to -44DV. (Bottom of pg 108) This is equal to 4 tower shields all protecting your front and sides. Primitive Weapon Arm Implants now have more value than I thought. Keep in mind that this DV is only vs the melee attacks that are in your face at that moment. The lowly -10DV tower shield from pg 101 helps your DV vs everything in the world, even while you're attacking. Perhaps shield DV should be doubled vs melee attacks when all you're doing is parrying melee attacks. I think I like this better.
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Post by providence13 on Aug 6, 2013 21:52:03 GMT -8
Now hold on to your shield because it's about to get crazy..
I hate myself for even bringing this up but I want to think about it before my players do. Players are a tricky bunch. You can develop Weapon Expert in about any physical mutation used for melee from mandibles, beaks and horns to spiked tails and wings. There's also a nice list on pg 57 with some good WE examples.
There will come a day my brothers, when the crafty players will announce to the heavens that they want to develop WE:Shield.
Think about it. Even with the off-hand modifier, if applicable, it's going to happen sooner or later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The interesting bit in Parrying is when individuals with more than one attack/rnd want to mix parries with melee attacks. What would be the rules for this?
If you get 2 melee attacks/rnd, you could parry then attack. This could be parry the 1st attack of my opponent and then attack, as an example. If you have more than 1 opponent facing front/sides you could choose to parry them both with 2 melee attacks. With enough available melee attacks, you could have an Equilibrium Gunkata style combat! I don't know if I should be excited about that or afraid as the GM.
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Post by maxstone on Aug 7, 2013 12:31:26 GMT -8
So, we could say that after rank 7 shields become useless. Why would I carry such a heavy item when I can use a knife (maybe with some points of WE)? Again, this sounds a lot overpowered. Perhaps shield DV should be doubled vs melee attacks when all you're doing is parrying melee attacks. I think I like this better. I'll stick to this modification, makes sense. And for other items I would make a fixed, unchangeable value, say 5 DV bonus. Some exceptions maybe can be really big items like a rocket launcher or something similar. What do you think about this? And ,since it's a related topic, how do you handle the "hack limb" option? (as GM do you use it? )
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Post by providence13 on Aug 7, 2013 21:24:04 GMT -8
So, we could say that after rank 7 shields become useless. Why would I carry such a heavy item when I can use a knife (maybe with some points of WE)? Again, this sounds a lot overpowered. If you use the shield in your dominant hand or have ambidex, using WE:Shield could be awesome. It could be argued that you get the SV bonus AND the shield bonus..! Maybe this is how medieval knights survived ..? Perhaps shield DV should be doubled vs melee attacks when all you're doing is parrying melee attacks. I think I like this better. I'll stick to this modification, makes sense. And for other items I would make a fixed, unchangeable value, say 5 DV bonus. Some exceptions maybe can be really big items like a rocket launcher or something similar. What do you think about this? And ,since it's a related topic, how do you handle the "hack limb" option? (as GM do you use it? ) Some items will be better defenders vs melee attacks than others. What we don't want is an item vs item chart; mass, length, composition vs the other guys's "numbers". This is a simple game and it needs to stay that way. The rules must be transparent so roleplaying is key. I will use the Parry Benefits by Weapon Table. In my humble opinion, rocket launchers may be big and awkward, but they aren't made to fend off melee attacks. Chances are, you will get out of my way/give me a wide berth if I have a chainsaw arm. Keep in mind that this parry only functions for melee attacks. So if the number seems grandiose, it's really quite specific. We're not talking about a situation where it's "Christmas morning, I'm untouchable and no one can hit me", more like "that freak has a chainsaw for an arm and he don't give a damn. Better stay away from him with swords, fellas, let's radio the snipers..." So different items might need different Parry numbers. I'm cool with that. Shields just need more sovereignty. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm actually ok with the called shots table. I like it. It works. I like it enough that I grabbed a free online image and made a chart with the called shots numbers. mutantepochforum.boards.net/thread/142/hit-location-picI printed this for the players and for myself placing it under the glass table top on our grid map. We have a phrase: Goose/Gander. If it works for the PC's then it works for the NPC's too. In other words, "If you agree to this, then you agree to the consequences." When the PC's get cocky about stabbing the enemy in the heart, give them a quick reminder of how trends follow fashion...
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Post by maxstone on Aug 8, 2013 5:10:40 GMT -8
well, I have to agree with you that a chainsaw can be quite effective if used to parry melee attacks! But are you sure that W.E. can be developed in shields? Isn't it for offensive tools only? Maybe you're referring to the bladed shield which can attack too? Your custom chart is really well made, I'm printing it right now I'll teach my PCs to never lower their guard in tonight's session
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Post by providence13 on Aug 8, 2013 7:43:04 GMT -8
well, I have to agree with you that a chainsaw can be quite effective if used to parry melee attacks! But are you sure that W.E. can be developed in shields? Isn't it for offensive tools only? Maybe you're referring to the bladed shield which can attack too? Your custom chart is really well made, I'm printing it right now I'll teach my PCs to never lower their guard in tonight's session When you print it you'll notice the water mark. Like I said, it's a modified stock image I found on line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I never said that Shields can be a WE Skill. There is no reason/rule preventing it.. You bring up another good point! You can attack with a bladed shield. If you can make melee attacks, then you can develop WE with that weapon. Or so it seems to me. If there's a flaw in my logic, please point it out. I could be wrong. Of course, every GM is different. Your game, your rules. The question arises, do you rule that WE: Dagger (or Sword) is used for the shield attack? In my mind, it would take a separate skill because the weight and attack is totally different than the normal Dagger/Sword. Just like if you stuck a dagger on the end of a pipe, you use WE: Spear, most likely. I'm not trying to bloat the game rules with WE skills. I didn't allow a PC WE: Rocket Launcher, although it could be argued that it's possible. So, I go with the premise that it's a separate skill. I don't do medieval reenactments, but I hear from friends that it takes some prowess to defend one's self with a big board.
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Post by providence13 on Aug 8, 2013 8:12:58 GMT -8
Let's assume the GM allows WE:Bladed Shield (D12+1 damage as shortsword). According to Parry rules on pg 108, you get SV on whatever WE skill you have that can be applied to improve your DV. Here comes the problem where the rules appear to fall apart, in my mind. Using a shortsword gives you a bonus of -22DV when used to parry! This is better than the shield provides. Why would a sword parry bonus ever be better than a shield? Isn't fending off attacks the reason shields were invented in the first place? Even if you double the shield DV when used to parry, (as I suggested) you're still not as good as Parrying with a normal shortsword. -14 vs -22. You could add swordsword with shield's normal DV... now you have -29DV. That is a crazy wack bonus to protection just because you stick a blade on a shield. (It could be argued that Parry DV isn't just "protection" but it also "intimidation factor". This adds more complexities as robots can't be intimidated and this whole thing is starting to make my head hurt.) I'm going through all this rigmarole before my players try to put a chainsaw on a shield or even a laser sword! I want to be ready for their shenanigans.
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Post by rexbannon on Aug 8, 2013 9:22:14 GMT -8
It seems to me that WM made a mistake by adding shields into the parry. Yes shields can be used as weapons and are big an unwieldy . So to me it is understandable that it would be harder ti parry with them. WM should have made a block ability in the game . This would make shields more effective. Parrying to me is the use of a hand held weapon to parry anothet hand held weapon such as it is in fencing. I will try to come up with a block table so that you can parry and block which would make more sense.
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Post by providence13 on Aug 8, 2013 9:36:13 GMT -8
Maybe block based on the Hazard Table. Blocker's SV - Attacker's SV as Trait Value.. or something would be easy. Not sure about the Letter; A,B,C.. Letter could start at C and increase one /block made this combat. Eventually, all that blocking could leave you open. I don't know. The higher your SV, the better chance to block.
Edit: Letter code is based on number of attackers starting at C. ?
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Post by Mutant Lord: William McAusland on Aug 8, 2013 11:03:01 GMT -8
Oh man, this is a bit of a can of worms.
If I had to do it all again I'd probably leave parrying rules out of the game because my players never use it, perhaps because they are so aggressive and always attack. I agree, however, that the DV bonus from parrying with a weapons shouldn't be more effective than a shield. Some solutions are:
Half the DV bonuses shown on the Parry Table TME 2-28
If the PC is devoting him or herself solely to parrying and has a shield, double the shield's DV so long as no physical attacks are being made by the PC (although allow mental mutations which don't' already disallow use when engaged in melee or being touched by others).
That said, the high DV shown for parrying got that way because unless the trade off was juicy, players never went for it. The idea, although I may have failed at it, was to create a cinematic feel to the occasional use of parrying or blocking blows instead of having PCs and NPCs always attacking. In movies and books the combatants often block blows while yelling at each other, or the villain divulging his evil plot while trying to kill the hero.
Finally, what Maxstone said: We have a phrase: Goose/Gander. If it works for the PC's then it works for the NPC's too. In other words, "If you agree to this, then you agree to the consequences." When the PC's get cocky about stabbing the enemy in the heart, give them a quick reminder of how trends follow fashion... is an excellent point, Maybe try to have some NPCs use parry to hold the PCs in a narrow passage.
Personally, by the time my characters used the parry option, they had long since given up their shields so as to tote shotguns or rifles, and so far I have never had to involve a shield in the rule.
I do think a shield use skill is demanded. Historically, shields were used to bash, squeeze, and harm opponents, even without a nasty spike or blade on them. To make a fantasy RPG using the Outland System, which we have started, the shield skill is mandatory. I am off yet again camping this weekend and will try and wrap my head around this new skill.
Great conversation, guys, thanks for bringing this up.
WM
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Post by providence13 on Aug 9, 2013 7:22:20 GMT -8
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Post by maxstone on Aug 10, 2013 11:41:17 GMT -8
Thanks averyone for the answers I think the parry problem is now solved! By the way the right person to quote was Providence13, not me, Admin
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Post by providence13 on Aug 10, 2013 20:13:24 GMT -8
Long ago I was told "You'll always succeed as long as you don't mind somebody else taking the credit".
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